Traps Behaviour

Would you want to have Traps behaviour modified ?

I want to see traps fixed to encourage less zergy and more GvG based fights.
22
88%
I want to keep traps as they work right now
3
12%
 
Total votes : 25

Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Haru » 2018-04-20 14:20 (Friday)

Disclaimer 1: The "this should work this way in this episode" is void, so please don't bother (we're not strictly and blindly following the official episodes; we don't aim to be the same as every other "classic" server; there is often very little evidence about the official servers behaviors and intentions), but I'm interested in this topic from the game balance perspective. If this results in any change in the near future, please keep in mind that it's "because it would work better this way even if potentially custom" rather than "because it should be this way because it once was". Thank you for your cooperation in discussing the matter from this perspective.
Disclaimer 2: This is an individual action and has not been discussed internally with the whole staff yet. At the current time I'm just collecting information to build/improve my own opinion, ahead of further discussion.

WRT the trap stickiness behavior: are you suggesting to permanently alter them so that they block characters as soon as they're triggered, or is this suggestion about the pre-trans WoE only?

About the monks snapping "out" of traps: please note that monks can't snap *out* of the traps, but they can relocate their own body to a location they have a clear line of sight to. When that happens, the snare is wrapped around their ankle, preventing them to walk until it gets loose (or a hunter removes it). Given this premise, can anyone convince me that a monk shouldn't be able to relocate his or her own body along with the snare?

Side note: when opening ticket in gitlab, I recommend against opening cumulative tickets that discuss multiple things (such as #663) - a ticket has a state (accepted, rejected, in progress, completed), and if it tries to track multiple suggestions at once, it's almost guaranteed to get rejected in its entirety if there are parts that can't be accepted. Tickets are free of charge, feel free to open one for each suggestion, as small as they might be!
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Franky4Fingers » 2018-04-20 15:39 (Friday)

I am actually happy to hear that origins is not blindly following the episodes, even more happy to see that the interest here is game balance.
Regarding the stickiness of traps, I cannot vouch for Trans episodes, but I can talk about PT WoE. We certainly need to have their behavior altered so that they block characters as soon as they are triggered for one main reason: Lack of damage in PT.

Currently the only lethal damage comes from Asura Strike. Anything else can be outpotted or played around and thus is survivable. Low damage means high survivability jobs, mainly Knights are literally unstoppable. I don’t think we need proof : we all know how a Knight can trigger a whole line of traps and just rush the emperium; however I will still provide a video in the near future clearly displaying the problem.

This basically leads to situations where a guild can hold a defense for 30 min straight, and still lose the castle to 4-5 Knights just waiting for the last minute rush.

Now how can traps fix this ? By sticking the target to the ground immediately, traps buy time for the defending guild (often defending vs 2-3 times their number) to organize better. Zerg is no longer an option, the only way to break becomes to face the defending guild in a frontal fight and defeat it. Not only do we now get GvG fights (which IMO is what a war is about), but jobs like Hunter become more than just status appliers. They now pace the rhythm of the fights for defenders, and can be used as a safe way to remove traps from range for attackers (Spring Trap). Plus, with traps not working on allies, you are now no longer forced to defend in Emp room: you can defend on the first floor and trap behind you to prevent zergs.

CAUTION: I would be careful to adjust respawn points accordingly: in the current Prontera castle for example, defenders need 10 sec to be back while attackers need more than 60sec, even on Pecos. Fixing traps would make the defenders advantage maybe too big. The solution would be to put the respawn point one floor below the current one.

If needed I would be more than happy to provide videos of WoEs in other servers in private message to you Haru, to show how pleasant such gameplay can feel.
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Franky4Fingers » 2018-04-20 15:53 (Friday)

Adding a paragraph here for visibility, instead of editing :

Monks snaping out of traps:

Monks are the second job I consider overpowered in oRO. First of all, they have an unlimited use of Snap. I won't compare to other servers or say it's not official (maybe it is i don't know). But an instant teleport to any location visible around, bypassing traps has to be considered OP in an environment where zerg-like skills are all not allowed: Rogues can't back slide, Knights can't endure and so on...

I am not saying Monks should not snap, but there should be a limit to it, and a risk / reward. Currently there is literally 0 risk and high reward if you asura someone before snapping out.
Monks have the only lethal skill of the PT era: they should be hence a high risk high reward: you want to snap around and pick off key targets ? you better be very careful where you snap or you ll end up trapped and dead.
This would also add to the skill cap for monks, separating good ones from average.

And it also works together with traps locking you in place. Cause whats the point if traps lock you in place, but you can still technically remove them while taking 0 risks ?

So if we are going to fix traps to encourage a more GvG like WoE, this should go hand in hand with Monks not being able to snap out of traps.
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby cLueless » 2018-04-20 20:54 (Friday)

Franky4Fingers wrote:Adding a paragraph here for visibility, instead of editing :

Monks snaping out of traps:

Monks are the second job I consider overpowered in oRO. First of all, they have an unlimited use of Snap. I won't compare to other servers or say it's not official (maybe it is i don't know). But an instant teleport to any location visible around, bypassing traps has to be considered OP in an environment where zerg-like skills are all not allowed: Rogues can't back slide, Knights can't endure and so on...

I am not saying Monks should not snap, but there should be a limit to it, and a risk / reward. Currently there is literally 0 risk and high reward if you asura someone before snapping out.
Monks have the only lethal skill of the PT era: they should be hence a high risk high reward: you want to snap around and pick off key targets ? you better be very careful where you snap or you ll end up trapped and dead.
This would also add to the skill cap for monks, separating good ones from average.

And it also works together with traps locking you in place. Cause whats the point if traps lock you in place, but you can still technically remove them while taking 0 risks ?

So if we are going to fix traps to encourage a more GvG like WoE, this should go hand in hand with Monks not being able to snap out of traps.


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If there was just a skill which would help a defence to stop player from using skills  (/no1)

"Currently there is literally 0 risk and high reward if you asura someone before snapping out."
I always thought u have to had spheres before snapping out. (/?)

"Monks have the only lethal skill of the PT era: they should be hence a high risk high reward: you want to snap around and pick off key targets ?"
Seems like u didnt know that there is a delay after u cast Snap, u literally cant instantly Asura. There is enought time to be dispeled, absorbed, hide safety wall or even MOVE.

UYou clearly never played monk
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby HeadShot33 » 2018-04-20 22:49 (Friday)

Yes you need 1 sphere before casting snap,and if you still have bragi from not being dispel/not being away from bragi for too long,then you can just sphere  cast and snap away pretty quick.
So this is not really an issue for monks.

What is the delay ur talking about anyways? its like 0.5 sec-1.5 second if your just the average 97 vit/wearing a mace monk,its not that long. And if you switch to no weapon/berserk pot/had assasin song flashed on you, then the delay is even less. With trans,this is not even an issue. Berserk weapon snapping around..... or cecil damon cards....
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Franky4Fingers » 2018-04-21 16:40 (Saturday)

What I am talking about is the possibility for monks to sneak in an enemy guild's stack and take down the devo, cast one sphere and snap out.

This would never happen with proper traps cause they wouldnt be able to get in the stack in the first place
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Franky4Fingers » 2018-04-23 05:56 (Monday)

Franky4Fingers wrote:I don’t think we need proof : we all know how a Knight can trigger a whole line of traps and just rush the emperium; however I will still provide a video in the near future clearly displaying the problem.


I said I would provide a proof of how dumb it is to play with the current traps : we prepared a roster of 5-7 Knights for this purpose exactly. Which is the reason why WoE was even more a zerg fest than usual. This is just to show how vital traps are in PT WoE, and how bad we need them. If anyone wants to see the full woe, i have the recording .rrf file (too big to attach here)

I would like to thank to staff team for the very fast reaction time on this: I feel we have done a first step in the right direction with the trap fix.
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Franky4Fingers » 2018-04-23 08:49 (Monday)

One more thing: there is a platinium skill that would help a great deal having more crowd control WoEs and that is Close Confine from the rogue. It was suggested in a recent thread in general chat to have plat skills implemented, well i fully support this decision as there is nothing game breaking atm

Things like Endow scrolls would really also diversify the damage source in PT WoE, by encouraging Knights / BS
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Konrawr » 2018-04-23 10:49 (Monday)

Haru wrote:WRT the trap stickiness behavior: are you suggesting to permanently alter them so that they block characters as soon as they're triggered, or is this suggestion about the pre-trans WoE only?

Imo traps blocking character when they are triggered is a balanced choice. Even ally chars.


Haru wrote:About the monks snapping "out" of traps: please note that monks can't snap *out* of the traps, but they can relocate their own body to a location they have a clear line of sight to. When that happens, the snare is wrapped around their ankle, preventing them to walk until it gets loose (or a hunter removes it). Given this premise, can anyone convince me that a monk shouldn't be able to relocate his or her own body along with the snare?

Totally agree with Haru. Instant blocking traps are pretty strong and annoying. Snap them is a way to counter it, so please don't change it or make a new thread to convince us if it's legit or not to nerf it. (And guess what? It isn't)
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Re: Traps Behaviour

Postby Kirchen » 2018-04-23 11:35 (Monday)

having traps working like this, is the only way to have a decent pt woe. letting Monks snap throw every trap is retarded and not supposed to be happening
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